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 Subject :Longest NA Mesh 2-Way Contact?.. 2012-09-27- 06:11:14 
NP2X
Member
Joined: 2012-06-22- 14:25:44
Posts: 24
Location: St. Croix, USVI

I'm curious what the longest North American 2-way mesh contact is?  I think I remember reading about some guys who had a 100+ mile QSO in the mountains of South America.  Of course, if anyone used mesh on the CA-Hawaii duct, that would blow everyone out of the water at 2400+ miles!  

The reason I ask is that last weekend we had a 41.5 mile 2-way on IRC.  One end had a 24 dBi parabolic reflector & 1 watt BDA.  The other end had a 24 dBi parabolic reflector and a "barefoot" WRT54 running a mere 19 mW.  Best rx sig on end with amp was -76 dBm.  

73 & Thanks!

Fred, NP2X


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 Subject :Re:Longest NA Mesh 2-Way Contact?.. 2012-09-27- 06:13:22 
NP2X
Member
Joined: 2012-06-22- 14:25:44
Posts: 24
Location: St. Croix, USVI
Whoops, make that WRT65 power -19 dBm, or about 50 mW. Also not sure why so many duplicates of my post were made. I only his submit once! Server/software problem perhaps?
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 Subject :Re:Longest NA Mesh 2-Way Contact?.. 2013-04-13- 14:34:48 
NP2X
Member
Joined: 2012-06-22- 14:25:44
Posts: 24
Location: St. Croix, USVI

We have now increased this distance to 47.5 miles, barefoot (50mW) node to barefoot (50 mW) node.  Reliability is low without PAs.  With a PA / BDA on one side reliability is about 80%.  When we put 2w PAs on both side, the link should be good enough for our emcomm purposes. 

Mesh on!

73,
Fred, NP2X





[NP2X 2012-09-27- 06:11:14]:

I'm curious what the longest North American 2-way mesh contact is?  I think I remember reading about some guys who had a 100+ mile QSO in the mountains of South America.  Of course, if anyone used mesh on the CA-Hawaii duct, that would blow everyone out of the water at 2400+ miles!  

The reason I ask is that last weekend we had a 41.5 mile 2-way on IRC.  One end had a 24 dBi parabolic reflector & 1 watt BDA.  The other end had a 24 dBi parabolic reflector and a "barefoot" WRT54 running a mere 19 mW.  Best rx sig on end with amp was -76 dBm.  

73 & Thanks!

Fred, NP2X



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 Subject :Re:Longest NA Mesh 2-Way Contact?.. 2013-04-14- 11:59:17 
n7ego
Member
Joined: 2013-03-06- 21:51:50
Posts: 30
Location: Cedar Hills, UT
What did you learn along the way that let you extend the distance on your most recent tests? Were you still using the same antennas as before? Did you try any other antennas at these distances? I'm preparing to do a 30 mile link to help with an event in October, and I'd like to learn as much as I can about what has and has not worked for others.
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 Subject :Re:Longest NA Mesh 2-Way Contact?.. 2013-04-16- 18:30:02 
kd7vea
Member
Joined: 2013-04-14- 17:29:45
Posts: 16
Location: spanish fork utah
I dont know ow your 30 mile test went, but if you want to try an 18 mile test, I am just about ready to get my setup mounted up on my antenna mast (around 30 feet high) I am just trying to figure out if I am going to run a lower gain omni, or a 24 dbi grid. I am new to the hsmm-mesh network, I heard some guys talking about it on a local repeater, and being in networking, this seems right up my alley.
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 Subject :Re:Longest NA Mesh 2-Way Contact?.. 2013-04-17- 02:14:12 
n7ego
Member
Joined: 2013-03-06- 21:51:50
Posts: 30
Location: Cedar Hills, UT
Unfortunately there is a line of tall trees south of my location, so I can't reach Spanish Fork from here. However I am working on putting together some portable units, and once I do I intend to try them out from various locations in the valley to see what I can reach.
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 Subject :Re:Longest NA Mesh 2-Way Contact?.. 2013-04-17- 14:24:59 
NP2X
Member
Joined: 2012-06-22- 14:25:44
Posts: 24
Location: St. Croix, USVI
Please allow me to clarify a bit about our 47+ mile mesh link: * The majority of our path (97+%) is over salt water, which some have called "nature's amplifier". We are fortunate in this regard and the conditions are not likely to be found except in a few parts of the US. * Both ends of the path are several hundred feet above water with no obstructions * I have found that blockage by vegetation can significantly attenuate signals, depending on the type & thickness of the obstruction. * Be mindful of blockage within the Fresnel zone of the path * Mesh is most certainly a "line of sight" propagation mechanism, but higher power helps on those paths which become "link-limited" due to free-space path loss Hope this helps & good luck on linking up on those long paths. 73, Fred, NP2X
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 Subject :Re:Longest NA Mesh 2-Way Contact?.. 2013-05-09- 13:30:14 
W5LMM
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Joined: 2012-02-13- 18:18:04
Posts: 126
Location: Albuquerque, NM
 
That is an awesome distance for 2.4! Great job!!
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 Subject :Re:Longest NA Mesh 2-Way Contact?.. 2013-09-23- 05:01:06 
NP2X
Member
Joined: 2012-06-22- 14:25:44
Posts: 24
Location: St. Croix, USVI

I added a 1-watt BDA to the setup and the best signal we've seen over the 47+ mile path is -72 dBm.  LQ varies from around 65% to 100%, certainly reliable enough for island-to-island communication.  

Next up is to get our amigos in Puerto Rico hooked into the system.  That will probably be via Vieques, a small island between PR & the USVI.  We may also try directly from St. Croix which would be a distance in the 85 to 90 mile range. 

Regarding the longest distance, I too read about the folks who used a HUGE dish in SA and had a 100+ mile shot from 10,000 foot mountains to the coast.  Having lived in SoCal before, you're right, NOTHING (at least that's known of now) will top the duct to Hawaii.  

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 Subject :Re:Longest NA Mesh 2-Way Contact?.. 2013-09-23- 18:49:13 
KD2DRK
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Joined: 2013-07-27- 11:29:18
Posts: 1
Location: New Jersey
What is the make and model of the 1w BDA you are using?
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 Subject :Re:Longest NA Mesh 2-Way Contact?.. 2013-09-24- 03:04:21 
kd7vea
Member
Joined: 2013-04-14- 17:29:45
Posts: 16
Location: spanish fork utah
I'm just wondering why I never hear about anyone using more than 1 or 2 watts. I have seen 8 watt amps on ebay for around $45, is it the ERP with a 24db antenna? Just curious.
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 Subject :Re:Longest NA Mesh 2-Way Contact?.. 2013-09-24- 05:18:02 
KD5MFW
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Joined: 2010-01-18- 23:02:11
Posts: 104
Location

If you are having trouble getting through to the local 2 meter repeater, upping the power on your cars mobile rig can sometimes help.  VHF has propagation characteristics where it gets around obstructions reasonably well.

Microwave propagation tends to work like a LASER pointer in a house of mirrors.  It requires Line Of Sight to get much distance at all.  In the house of mirrors, if you crank up the power on the LASER pointer, your coverage does not improve much - the other end of your link still needs a LOS path.  Move a few feet or even inches, and you are out of the path - that is why many of the wireless home routers have 2 antennas.  One antenna a few inches away may get a much better signal than the other antenna.

So broadband microwave systems tend to either be point to point links with a good clear path, or many small meshed radios where, some group of them can find a LOS path to each other.

Putting up an omni-directional antenna for broadband microwave work and running a lot of power tends to make more of a mess than help.  It raises the noise floor in the whole area, desensing all receivers in the area, and can still pass its signal over or by antennas in the area, that do not have LOS.

So with directional antennas or closely spaced mesh nodes, there is no technical need for much power.  If you don't have a path, a RF amp often just makes more of a mess.  Get a better antenna or change location.  That is the physics of microwave and why high power Bi Directional Amplifiers (BDAs) are seldom a good solution.

Most of us do not live on mountain tops, so the curvature of the Earth limits us to about 33 miles LOS over flat land / water.  So there are very few paths that can make good use of an 8 watt BDA.

-Glenn

KD5MFW

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 Subject :Re:Longest NA Mesh 2-Way Contact?.. 2013-09-24- 08:01:58 
kd7vea
Member
Joined: 2013-04-14- 17:29:45
Posts: 16
Location: spanish fork utah

Okay, that makes sense. I was just wondering about that. I have 2 nodes built, and the 24db antennas on the way, so I am trying to get everything dealt with so I can move onto the next step of receiving what service to install. I am leaning towards running a raspberry pi, but I need to do a little more research on that one. I have been on 1.2 GHz ssb for a while now, so I am familiar with the propagation. Thanks for the info.

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Last Edited On: 2013-09-24- 08:04:05 By kd7vea for the Reason
 Subject :Re:Longest NA Mesh 2-Way Contact?.. 2013-09-25- 00:21:29 
KC9QEA
Member
Joined: 2013-09-12- 12:42:13
Posts: 7
Location
OK, so being real new to this myself and I'll admit my train of thought would/could be totally off base here. Wouldn't a good use of an amplifier be when you are presented with a situation where you are unable to put the node and the antenna right next to each other and you'd be forced to use a considerable amount of coax to connect the two pieces of equipment? The amp would be used to compensate for the loss in the coax and the connectors? Seems logical but then again, some things in life do not follow logic.
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 Subject :Re:Longest NA Mesh 2-Way Contact?.. 2013-09-25- 09:16:35 
KD5MFW
Admin
Joined: 2010-01-18- 23:02:11
Posts: 104
Location

Using an RF amp to overcome feed line loss works fine. 

For wi-fi type radios, they rapidly switch between transmit and receive and you need a Bi-Directional Amplifier to work well.  It does little good to boost the transmit signal, if you cannot hear the ACK packet that comes back to complete the data transfer.  So a BDA amplifies both transmit and receive.  But this means that on the receive side, you not only boost the signal, you boost the noise as well.

If somebody is running a high power RF amp in the area, they can cause you and all their neighbors unnecessary problems, without helping their own links work well.  The receive side of your BDA will boost noise as well as signal and the absolute signal level being higher may do you no good if there is too much noise.

Signal to noise ratio as shown on the Broadband-Hamnet(TM) signal screen is often more important a gage of a quality connection than absolute signal strength.  If you have a strong signal but also a lot of noise, your radio may have trouble correctly receiving data.  As a rule of thumb, we find if you can get a S/N reading of 10 or more on the mesh nodes, you have a workable signal.  Below 10 any slight drop and you may have problems receiving the data.

So with little noise in the feed line, an RF amp can work well.  I have done it, with an existing antenna at the top of a tower and 300 feet of feed line.  But check the actual loss for the feed line - it does not usually take an 8 watt amp to overcome the feed line loss.

The good path analysis software always allows you to plug in values for feed line loss when you are filling in all the blanks for an analysis.  If you go by the calculations, you will be in the ball park and things will usually work as expected.

Commercial microwave has been in use for decades and if slapping on a big amp would work well for the pros, they would have found a way to use them.   They have nice path planning software and expensive test gear to go measure exactly how the calculated results worked.

One of our local hams worked military then commercial microwave for decades and he told me most commercial links commonly run 3 - 4 watts of power.  They have anti-torque guy wires added to arms on microwave towers to keep them from twisting.  They get good LOS paths, or they move to a place that has a LOS path, or they create one with a tall tower - but they get LOS.  Then they very carefully adjust their directional antennas at both ends of a point to point link, then use really stout mounting hardware to make sure the antenna does not move.  Thats what works.

The commercial gear often puts the radio on the back of the dish.  Overcoming feed line loss works, and is good to know about, but some would consider it a patch for a less than optimum equipment configuration.  Amps are not perfect.  They add noise and can amplify a marginal signal to a point where unwanted parts of the signal are raised to a level where they cause problems.  This was a classic problem with cheap CB RF amplifiers.  The original radio had some noise in it but with the factory design, these unwanted parts of the signal were below an acceptable level.  Amplify the whole signal and the parts of the signal that used to be below problem levels are way above acceptable levels.  If these are not filtered, the signal going to the antenna has all sorts of unwanted noise in it.

Feed line can go bad and fill up with water vapor that attenuates microwave signals.  Wave guide is sometimes pressurized with nitrogen to keep the water vapor out.  Putting the radio on the back of the antenna usually gets around having to pressurize your feed line with nitrogen.

In Austin, we have found that with good sites, simply putting a 24dB BBQ grill parabolic antenna at each end of a link, gets us 10 miles, at will, using a WRT54G with no added RF amplifier.  If there is a tree in the way, move your antenna or the tree.  If a building is in the way, you probably need to move, but it is sometimes fun to reflect signals off some buildings and make a "bank shot".  This is usually not real stable as the reflective surface moves a lot and sends your signal all over the place.

I have used the rounded belly of an old style 4 legged water tower (or as they are called by the makers "elevated tanks") to shoot basically straight up at the belly of the tank from below and then adjust the antenna to make contact with another mesh node, when the angle of the antenna is just right.

This works might work if you are portable and socked in by trees and buildings.  I used a 24dB dish, and no amp to link with AD5OO, years ago in early mesh field tests.  At night a LASER pointer taped to the feed support helps in fine tuning the antenna - and you really have to get it fine tuned for a decent link, reflected shot or not.  No waving the antenna at the birds and calling it aiming.  Take a compass and get a vector that is the path, then slowly move the antenna very slightly left right / up down until you link.  At a distance of miles, very slight moves of the antenna make a big difference with a highly directional antenna.

Get out in the field and try the gear.  Do some calculations with free software.  A tripod and compass rose for it are common for portable microwave systems.  I have a compass I got back in Boy Scout days and it still works fine for my microwave work.

-Glenn

KD5MFW



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